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Comments:
<0> niv_ : i do think that
<1> the price of living in a cohesive society is "stealing"
<0> niv_ : stealing from the working man
<1> but i dont want to get back into the roads discussion, that's so 3 hours ago
<0> niv_ : do you believe we should tax the working poor?
<1> no
<0> do you think socialism will get that right?
<2> farhan, ever wondered where the resources for the public services provided by the government must come from?
<0> Maloeran : taxes and foreign security bonds
<3> or oil
<1> I don't believe there should even be a working poor, farhan.
<2> Taxes yes, which are necessary to enforce a certain minimum of living standards for the common good
<1> Don't you see that it's ridiculous for someone to be in the "working poor"?
<2> So this is definitely not "theft"
<0> ya'll haven't even seen real poverty
<0> in america, poverty is that you have to work 2 jobs just to get by
<0> you don't even know what poverty is
<1> I mean, someone is working 40 hours a week and still in poverty
<4> farhan: Yet you still think capitalism is all rosy and wonderful.
<1> just so some capitalist can extract their surplus labour-value and get rich from it
<0> Sartak : these places....are the socailist places
<2> In many countries, the government will provide enough for anyone to live with basic fundamental needs easily fulfilled
<0> Sartak : my father was from India
<0> Sartak : he would get so hungry sometimes because he didn't eat for 2 days
<0> after india became more free, its economy boomed
<0> people are more healthy, living better, being taken out of poverty
<1> Interesting that you support the very system that exploits the 3rd world
<4> I'll bet you India was capitalist.
<0> it only recently became capitalist
<0> in the last 10 years or so
<0> and its booming
<2> Most "wealthy" capitalist countries can only sustain themselves because they exploit the remaining 90% of the world population
<1> The reason the poor in America have it slightly better than the poor in other countries is because the rich in America make a lot of money off of other countries and kick a bit down to the poor here, because they don't want revolution in their backyard
<4> And what was it before?
<1> Exactly Maloeran.
<0> Sartak : socialist
<0> Sartak : the party which broke india away from the british were socialist, so the country was socialist for a while
<4> o rly
<0> Sartak : seriously man, people here don't even know what poverty is
<1> hey farhan.. do you support the CIA engineered coups of 3rd world countries which have replaced _democratically elected_ leaders with right-wing fascists who were more friendly to american capitalism/imperialism?
<2> There are countries where social security is the equivalent of 1000USD a month, so I suppose not
<1> Read: Augsuto Pinochet, Chile, 1973
<0> how many people did pinochet kill?
<1> also, Guatemala, El Salvador
<0> niv_ : btw, im against that
<2> What does the amount of people Pinochet killed have to do with anything?...
<1> I don't know off the top of my head. But that's what your system needs to survive. It _needs_ economic imperialism because it can't sustain itself off the resources at home.
<0> my father said one time, the government run train took his family away to Pakistan while he stayed in India because it was soo poorly managed
<4> Maloeran: I ***ume he was going to say something like "well socialist-engineered poverty killed a hundred times as many"
<0> Pakistan is only recently liberalizing its markets. one of my friends was in the north once and she said she heard a baby crying. She looked and people were living in the space between two houses. THAT'S socialism at work
<1> farhan: Every time a leftist government in South America would "go too far" (read: stand up for it's own economic interests and that of it's people), the US CIA would simply have that government removed and replaced with US-friendly right-wing fascists
<0> niv_ : yeah, i have read about that....that's bad
<0> niv_ : see how bad government is?
<2> A socialist system would probably rather care about every citizens seeing basic needs fulfilled. That hardly makes sense
<0> niv_ : a smaller US government would not do such a thing....but big governments cause war
<0> niv_ : make sense?
<4> farhan: In that, at least, we agree.
<1> farhan: What does that say about capitalism? Such a wonderful system that can't support itself at home so it has to go abroad and use economic/military imperialism to acquire more resources for itself.
<0> Sartak : what? small governments?
<0> niv_ : that isn't capitalism
<4> yes.
<0> niv_ : that's government
<0> niv_ : it was the US GOVERNMENT. a system you support
<1> farhan: On the contrary.. those CIA-engineered coups were in order to support rich american businesses.
<4> farhan: niv_ was explaining earlier how capitalism is related to imperialism.
<0> niv_ : yeah, but that's not a free-market. that coerction. The CIA is what? Government
<0> niv_ : the military is what? Government
<1> farhan: The coup in Guatamala was to directly benefit the UNITED FRUIT COMPANY.
<0> niv_ : you just proved yourself wrong
<0> yeah, i heard about that one :-)
<1> God, it's like talking to a ****ing brick wall.
<0> niv_ : i think the same thing
<0> you are talking about how bad government is....to show me how bad government is
<2> It's fairly similar to how american companies acquired all Iraqi oil state companies... International laws state that acquiring state companies is illegal during an invasion, but that didn't make much of a difference
<1> farhan: You said your father is Indian.. do you mind if I ask if you are Hindu?
<1> I was pointing out how capitalism needs imperialism.
<0> no
<0> niv_ : My dad was from India, mom from Pakistan
<1> You're totally missing the point of my statements
<0> niv_ : they both migrated to Pakistan after the war, but my dad (and pretty much every other male looking for a job) went back and forth
<0> the party before this one, the Hindu nationalist party, killed a lot of muslims which im against...but they were free-market oriented which lead to the biggest boom in the Indian economy...ever
<1> Hmm..
<1> Anyone have any idea how long we've been talking about this?
<5> ****.
<0> actually, they didn't kill anyone. they just encouraged the killings
<5> more hours of ignore needed.
<0> niv_ : Look at China :-)
<0> niv_ : they were DIRT poor during Communism.
<0> under a more liberal, free-market systme, they're booming
<1> farhan: China was never communist. It simply claimed to be.
<1> Same as the USSR.
<0> okay, give me a real communist country
<1> Both were actually state-monopoly capitalist.
<2> Chiva was even farther than the USSR on this
<4> There hasn't been a real communist country, farhan.
<2> Real communism has never been tried
<1> "communist country" is an oxymoron
<1> Communism is a STATELESS, CL***LESS society
<0> yeah, it is.... true, oxymoron....okay, give me a socialist country
<2> Socialist to what point? Norway and Finland could be good examples
<1> Cuba, somewhat.
<1> Sweden, somewhat.
<1> But nothing that I would call exactly socialist.
<2> There's an interesting balance of socialism and capitalism in scandinavian countries
<0> niv_ : how about France? i dont know enough about Sweden or Finland/Norway to talk about them
<2> France? Not really, no
<1> Cuba has problems as far as Castro relinquishing power and democratic elections. However in some ways Cuba is more democratic than most bourgeous-democratic societies like the US.
<1> Plus, Cuba has the most accessible healthcare system in the world
<1> Better than the US (lower infant mortality rate, more doctors per capita)
<2> I think it's a serious problem when out of 300 million people, the most competent and suitable man to be elected president *happens* to be the son of another president!
<1> and a higher literacy rate, as I already mentioned
<1> Also Cuba's homeless populatiojn = 0
<2> Cuba manages to do a lot with very little resources
<0> lol, yes, according to government data
<1> *population
<0> which is why everyone wants to move there, right?
<0> or....come to the US?
<1> And on top of that they are under an embargo from a superpower only 90 miles away for the last 50 years
<0> niv_ : if cuba is so good, why does everyone wish to leave it?
<2> Cuba has very little resources in comparison, I don't think you have an idea how big the difference is
<1> farhan: everyone doesn't wish to leave it.
<0> don't cubans try to come to the US every 3rd day?
<0> over boats?
<0> they get stopped by the coast guard
<2> Cuba is atrociously poor, but it still manages the little it has properly
<1> farhan: I don't really feel like debating Cuba, you can get information here: www.freepeoplesmovement.org/cuba/
<0> remember Elina Gonzolez?
<2> The united states are rich, and extremely wasteful
<1> Sorry it's just I've debated Cuba like 50000000 times in the last 2 days
<0> niv_ : with other free-market people?
<2> I feel very tired of discussions with a party that doesn't respond to reason
<0> part of Freedom is economic freedom. Socialism takes away freedom
<1> farhan: Yes
<1> with other free market people
<1> no, you need to learn about positive and negative freedoms
<4> Economic freedom isn't all good.
<0> so, now you guys are against certain kinds of freedom?
<2> Economic freedom lets you harm the whole society seriously, if you want to
<1> i.e. your freedom to exploit me infringes on my freedom from exploitation
<1> do you understand that simple concept?
<4> The freedom to secretly sell feces in hot dogs?
<0> niv_ : how? then don't be exploited
<0> niv_ : if im gonna pay you $2/hour, don't work for me
<0> simple
<0> that's what a strike is, after all
<1> farhan: Strikes require union organizing, something capitalists in america have been trying to do away with forefver.
<1> *forever.
<0> nah, im all for strikes, as long as they don't get violent
<2> It doesn't solve the problem of the decisions and power lying in the hands of the investors, and not in the hands of the power who actually make the company prosper and live
<1> farhan: The entire system is exploitation, there's no escape from it
<2> in the hands of the people*
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