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Comments:
<0> Routermen: mvs? or zOS?
<1> zOS
<0> :D
<2> z/OS?
<1> mvs has is non supported by IBM
<2> Routermen: z/OS is based on MVS.
<3> Routermen: good old main frame :)
<1> they stop supporting mvs tho
<0> Routermen: let me show you something :)
<1> jeian: yeah . i know ^_^
<2> MVS3.8j is public domain AFAIK...
<4> Enchanter_tim: You want discrete math.
<0> http://www.corestore.org/34.htm i started on this system way back
<4> I ipcked up a textbook today (whopping $135), and its got exactly what you need.
<3> My brother is a sys-admin for a bank. According to the conferences he takes, the mainframe is _still_, the most stable and secure system in the world
<0> jblack: yeah.
<0> jblack: i have some books now.
<2> Cognition: Indeed.
<0> jblack: the prices on those books are insane
<0> Cognition: the vanguard conferences?
<2> All the data we produce at work goes through a mainframe at some point.
<3> Enchanter_tim: i'm not sure, it's conferences that are mandatory for all bank sys-admin employees.
<4> Cognition: The odd thing is that I mostly hear that from people that work primarily on mainframes.
<1> Enchanter_tim: the white box .. ive seen a couple of it laying around somewhere in the company's discarded system storage
<2> jblack: It's true. Most mainframe maintenance can be done without taking the system down.
<1> Cognition: IBM claimed that the as/400 system is virtually unhackable . "virtually"
<0> jblack: those systems are in basements. out of sight. doing batch processing. if you dont notice them, its good :D
<4> jeian: Thats the case with unix too. :)
<0> Routermen: yeah. im still working on my pentesting suite for the as400
<3> jblack: i won't claim any knowledge on the subject, i barely know my way around the mainframe, and a bit about JCL. But i can tell you that the only cl*** that we CANNOT get rid of in school, is the COSC220 which is COBOL/Mainframe, which tells you how much stability and reliance those companies benefit from this system
<4> Cognition: Yeah. I can't claim knowledge there either.
<0> Routermen: the default installation on a as/400 is *horrible*.
<2> jblack: Hardware upgrades? :P
<1> MVS - multiple virtual system .. or we called it LPARS .. logical partition system
<4> Nah. I can't afford to buy a mainsrame.
<0> jblack: and they run linux as well..
<3> Routermen: the word virtually means "maybe maybe not". It's one of those weasel words so often used in advertising
<4> pardon the accidental typo.
<0> 10,000 instances simultaneously
<1> Cognition: yeah ^_^ they play it safe by saying " virtually "
<2> What the hell does "virtually" mean anyway?
<3> Hey, you want a cool kick*** computer .......
<0> btw, for those of you interested: http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules/
<2> In the literal sense of the word, it doesn't make sense the way we use it. :/
<3> MSX :) LOL
<0> The Hercules System/370, ESA/390, and z/Architecture Emulator
<3> i bet half of the visitors in the channel don't even know it
<1> Blue gene .. i think thats the coolest to date
<2> Enchanter_tim: I run MVS on that - but learning is a royal pain in the ***.
<0> jeian: i have ..umm..
<1> brb
<0> z/os 1.5 on that.
<2> :(
<3> MSX was actually my childhood computer
<2> Share? ;p
<0> jeian: i ph33r big blue. that machine isnt even connected to the internet
<2> I'm trying to learn basic MVS stuff, but the docs that are available are mainly for z/OS and half the commands are completely different. :\
<0> heh
<2> Enchanter_tim: Gotcha. :P
<3> why would any one want to learn MVS
<3> everytime i hear MVS i see dust in the air!
<3> It's freaking older than black and white!
<0> hah, black & white were invented to create a difference between cics users and ispf users
<3> LOL
<3> actually, ISPF was the only thing that was mildly acceptable on the mainframe. Everything else was a pain on that damn system.
<0> jblack: apart from the weird licensing, its actually a nice operating system to know something about.
<0> the concepts that, at a first glance look so alien, are being reintroduced into the mainstream world
<3> And inventors of COBOL don't know **** about layered architectures or software engineering. The data, data access, program logic, AND presentation are all lumped into one big ugly file ...
<0> like the whole lpar thing. basically that would allow you to run different oprating systems on the real hardware.
<5> humm
<0> redundancy stuff, fault tolerance
<3> Enchanter_tim: it's a good system, a stable system, a powerful system, yes. A nice operating system, HELL NO
<0> using a database-like system as "filesystem"
<0> Cognition: its nice to know the concepts.
<0> if you want userfriendly, use the as/400
<0> :D
<3> Enchanter_tim: well, i got more than enough, an entire semester of COBOL programming, ISPF, and JCL. i'm more than done with it :)
<0> hehe
<0> anyway, lets get back on topic
<0> and i need to go to bed as well
<3> what was the topic?
<0> Cognition: linux, in all its aspects
<0> i remember installing ThinkBlue on a real iron as a "test system"
<0> and something went wrong. I was really glad that it was "just" a test system
<0> heh
<0> (thinkblue is/was the ibm version of linux for the zSeries)
<3> You know something, i'm in favor of switching the kernel to something other than linux.
<3> i know it's an old argument, but i'm convinced that the monolithic approach has to be abandoned at some point
<0> Cognition: the microkernel thing seems harder to implement than it looks like.
<3> OSs are only going to be more complex and expensive to maintain.
<0> take a look at gnu/herd for example
<3> Enchanter_tim: well, the difficulty, as i experienced it while writing an OS, is in determining which goes where. There are some aspects of the OS that you just don't know where to put, on which layer, because they're so dependent on both layers
<3> But, a modular approach, even though difficult in the start, would be much easier to maintain on the long term
<0> Cognition: but those are design decisions, and that should be done before even one line of code is produced
<3> That's one of the main reasons why Linux succeded, because RMS and his team were spending the sweet time developing the modular approach with gnu hurd, that they couldn't finish a working design as fast as Linus could
<3> Enchanter_tim: dude i was doing it for my OS cl***, i wasn't hired by Apple or something :)
<0> Cognition: hehe
<3> but think about it though, if you provide the same interface that Linux provides, yet implement the system in a modular preferrably an OOP, then, you won't feel any difference running the system, it's the same tools, just a different kernel with the same interface
<0> Cognition: that was the promise that GNU had for all of us :D
<3> who knows, maybe some geek in a carage somewhere is writing it right now as we speak, and he'll release it to the public. The first OO Linux :)
<0> Cognition: its been a promise for years.
<3> Enchanter_tim: yeah, i guess linux just rode the wave :)
<0> On the negative side, the support for character devices (like sound cards) and other hardware is mostly missing. Although the POSIX interface is provided, some additional interfaces like POSIX shared memory or semaphores are still under development.
<0> thats from the project page.
<0> they started working on the mach kernel in 1988. thats an awfull lot of years
<3> hmm, if you're talking about linux, i would have to pause for a second. I've never seen an OS that supports hardware as much as linux does, even if not all the drivers are builtin the kernel
<0> Cognition: yeah. its quite amazing really
<0> and it might prove to be its downfall as well. lots of redundant code in the kernel, and according to some of the devlopers i spoke to at fosdem, no one really has a detailed overview of the inner workings of the kernel anymore
<3> Enchanter_tim: for example, on my own personal system, i just installed the distro, and next thing you know, i got my digital cam, camcorder (on firewire), webcam, all card, and my modem to work without lifting a finger
<3> Heck, i mean even on windows, i had to install drivers here and there!
<0> anyway, i have to get up at 6, and its now 1:30.
<0> so i should go to bed.
<3> Enchanter_tim: sweet dreams
<0> nice talking to you :)
<3> likewise, take care for now.
<0> and Routermen and jeian as well :D
<2> Seeya Enchanter_tim :)
<6> tater tots... llama... keychains... glamour shots... does that mean anything to anyone?
<6> oh come on.. a channel full of geeks and someone over my shoulder and no responses?
<7> yes
<7> nivek: stop drinking
<8> hi all
<8> i have a question !
<7> just ask
<1> i have an answer
<1> i think
<7> salam Routermen
<8> how can i read mp3 on fedora5
<1> salam chills
<8> :) Routermen
<7> al-Zabarja9: install mplayer
<7> yum install gmplayer
<1> al-Zabarja9: http://stanton-finley.net/fedora_core_5_installation_notes.html#XMMS
<7> whats up Routermen
<1> chills: not much .. enjoying my oats meal
<1> chills: you ?
<7> Routermen: just woke up for fajar
<8> well i just wanna add that i dont have a mp3 decoder for the music players
<1> chills: ^_^ . ***olatuhairum minan naum
<1> al-Zabarja9: http://stanton-finley.net/fedora_core_5_installation_notes.html#XMMS .. pls read it ^_^
<7> namaz is better then sleep ?
<8> Routermen hay ala al salah hay ala al falah
<8> allahu akbar allahu akbar
<1> chills: solat is better than sleeping
<8> laaa ilaahaa illa allah
<7> ah yea it was added by hazrat Bilal in call to prayers
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