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Comments:
<0> i'll take a while to observe :)
<1> ok I understand that linux is a learn-it-yourself type of os
<2> yeah
<1> but you need to put them in the right direction
<2> that's why i told Enggr earlier that if he "just wants it to work" then linux would not be a good choice
<1> help them stand up
<3> causality, I'd rather not waste my time mapping out my operating system because it's bound by no standards
<4> man we're arguing here and redhat is making money out of linux
<1> then hit them with the rtfm
<5> hmm
<2> poutine: do you really have such a hard time navigating a system to find what you are after?
<4> isn't it crazy
<4> lols
<3> causality, yes, it is
<3> causality, tell me, how would you find BIND/
<3> with your 'whereis' and 'locate'
<2> actually i probably would not even need those
<3> I'm just saying
<2> i'd start in /etc with rc* and init.d etc
<3> you said it was possible, so I'm asking how
<2> i know what you mean, because i use Gentoo and a friend of mine uses Ubuntu, and when i was helping him with a few things i did have to poke around to find ****, but this added a sum total of about 5 mins
<2> never crossed my mind that this was some big issue
<3> finding the binaries is only one part, what about the configuration files? "Oh look to /etc", that'
<3> s a great idea until it becomes
<2> put it this way, i don't think i am making an overstatement if i say that someone who cannot locate things on their system should NOT be configuring servers and probably should not even have the root p***word
<3> /etc/networking/nameserver/bind/configuration/
<2> poutine: which "locate bind" would show
<3> causality, no
<4> poutine: i guess you can easily look for manuals of particular distros where you can find
<3> and locate relies on an intensive updatedb
<2> yeah it's intensive at 3am when it runs :)
<2> for about 3 mins
<4> poutine: like you can search for configuring bind on ubuntu and it'll tell you where all the files must be on your system
<4> isn't it?
<2> poutine: and you're not going to be calling Redhat's support and ask about Debian. so how's this a problem for support personnel again?
<1> who agrees with me :/
<3> I shouldn't have to do that, an app for linux should be the same on all linux distributions, I understand gcc and libc versions may be different across certain distributions, but there's absolutely no reason why people should have to release packages for every different flavour of linux
<3> causality, I'm sure you would
<2> poutine: having no solid point is fine but ad hominem attacks make you look stupid
<3> If you were a corporate redhat customer, and your app was to be released soon, and you wanted it to work on all linux distributions, I can ***ure you that you'd call redhat support
<3> causality, I have not used ad hominems
<3> please learn the definition of the word before accusing me of it
<2> then i may have misinterpreted the "i'm sure you would"
<2> if so i apologize
<2> but i got the idea that if i maintain a program, i release the vanilla tarball and if gentoo wants it to be in their repository, they can package it for Portage themselves
<2> if developers are maintaining every distro's package themselves, this is news to me
<2> (i'm not saying that they don't, mind you. i am saying i have never heard of this)
<3> lack of standards is even apparent in something as simple as versioning. I understand why apps have a v 2.12 which is newer than 2.9, but this makes it hell to sort versioning information
<2> hahaha
<2> now that one i agree, ****in openal changed their versioning scheme from being like "20050801" to "0.0.8"
<2> that caused me some minor annoyances when updating
<2> but that's simply poor planning on the part of its authors
<2> poor planning always ****s, be it computing, government, whatever
<3> planning is the process of setting standards for something that doesn't exist yet
<1> no one was born with all the knowledge, everyone took baby steps on his way to becoming a better linux admin/user/developer. so why shouldn't us newbies ask you guys for help until we stand up on our feet and learn to do it ourselves
<2> Al-Ashtar: because you don't seem to understand, no one can stand up on your feet except you.
<2> help from others should be at most a supplement to your own learning
<2> otherwise you're ****ing yourself in the long run
<2> and if someone tells you how you can find your answer, rather than merely giving you the answer, they are helping you a hell of a lot more
<3> reading the ****ing manual exposes itself as a luxury when the things you are doing no longer have a manual to go with it, and those types of questions in here are *rare*
<1> I'm not talking about still wanting hand holding when I can do it myself. I'm talking about the first couple of days or even weeks of using linux
<6> umm, no. most questions in here could be answered within the first page of google results.
<1> after that I can stand on my own feet as you said
<2> Al-Ashtar: well, when i started using linux i had a big thick book that came with a RedHat CD and no one i knew even heard of linux. i figured it out myself bit by bit, using the book and man pages
<4> what year was it causality ?
<2> and this was in 1997, so if you wanted X to work you needed to break out pen and paper and calculator and calculate the modelines yourself etc
<1> that's because you mother language is english :)
<2> well end of 96, beginning of 97
<2> Al-Ashtar: heh now that problem i am not so familiar with
<3> modelines are a bitch
<2> supposing you can find a good book in your native language you'd be in the same boat
<1> try learning something in arabic with a book. let's see how would you hold up
<4> Al-Ashtar: that's a lame excuse
<2> i'm ***uming a well-written arabic book, for an arabic speaker, is no worse than a well-written english book for an english speaker
<2> heh
<2> it does sound like a lame excuse, but since it has not happened to me i can't say i know that to be true
<1> still wouldn't be the same
<1> do you know why ?
<3> you have to read right to left?
<2> because the commands are in english?
<1> yup
<1> lol
<2> still
<7> Norwegian is my mother tongue, and I tend to find that english documentation is ALWAYS easier to read.
<2> if nothing else you could memorize them
<4> lols
<2> Al-Ashtar: but your english seems fairly good. certainly far superior to my (lack of) arabic
<1> the_ruthless: again, how many years of english experience do you have ?
<4> Al-Ashtar: name a good linux book in arabic
<1> causality: yeah I have a bit of english experience
<2> heh
<1> cipherd: I never heard of any
<7> Al-Ashtar: a good way of learning would be playing computer RPG's. I did so. Kicked my english teachers' *** when I was 11-12 years old.
<4> that's it
<2> in fact most people i talk with online, for whom english is a second langauge, speak it better than native-born Americans, especially with regard to grammar
<2> although they may be lacking in vocab.
<2> and in person a thick accent may be hard to understand :)
<2> but otherwise
<4> the countries whose national languages aren't supported , do teach english as second language so english must not be a problem with you too
<1> cipherd: lol
<1> cipherd: kuwait teachs english
<1> teaches even
<1> do you know what does a 12th grade student take in his year ?
<2> but Al-Ashtar you do realize that you are a special case?
<4> Al-Ashtar: then i'd lol if kuwait doesn't teach english and they don't have a proper channel of translating tech books in arabic
<2> most people who come in here asking questions easily found via Google are native english speakers
<4> good point causality
<1> Today, the weather was wet. It was ..... a) rained b) rain c) raining
<2> by 12th grade you are not past subject-verb agreement?
<8> raining
<4> com'mon Al-Ashtar it's a very tough one
<9> :\
<4> lolssss
<1> this is what a 12th grade student takes
<1> I'm serious
<2> well **** nevermind
<1> laugh all you want
<9> raining
<2> in USA the questions aren't much tougher
<4> yeh Al-Ashtar now you see why i was laughing
<2> but that's due to our flawed educational system that is much more interested in shaping attitude and personality than in transmitting knowledge
<1> what you take in 3rd grade, we take in 12th grade
<3> these frappuchcinos really make me need to poo
<4> causality: that's the problem with almost every country
<4> but german are bit different
<1> **** in collage they gave us present continues
<1> or what ever
<1> remove the "e" and add ing
<1> lol
<1> but if you major in english literature, that's another story
<2> what's funny
<2> is that my Latin training taught me a lot more about the proper use of english grammar than did any english cl*** i have ever taken
<1> ?
<4> please! guys we're slipping off linux here
<4> so let's come back to it
<2> yeah, true. but if no one has any linux questions ...
<4> man is there any good market for linux kernel devlopers?
<2> heh
<2> that's a good question
<4> sure :)
<2> meaning i haven't a clue.
<4> lolssssss
<2> heh
<2> i'd imagine though
<2> that if someone is knowledgable enough about programming in general
<4> no seriously if we consider, what's the real job opportunities for them
<2> to be able to develop for the kernel
<2> then there could be plenty of uses for them
<2> that may not be linux-related
<4> for example?
<5> Ok Guys
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